Blog

  • U Ohn Khine (M70)

    • Thanks a lot Ko Zaw Min [Nawaday] for your interesting reminiscences (RIT 1964 – 1970)
    • I would like to sprinkle some sesame (Nhan Phyu).

    Boxing

    The boxing tournament was held in the lawn in front of C and D block. I remember two of our seniors went up the ring and had some jovial boxing making us LOL. Ko Zaw Win and Ko Min Kyi (both M 67) were the two, if I can rely on my memory. There was no square concrete monument at that time.

    Sayas and Sayamas at RIT in 1964

    The list is not comprehensive. It contains the names of most RIT sayas in 1964 (when we started attending classes).

    There are several sayas (Dr. Aung Gyi, U Aung Khin, …) who were abroad on deputation, and some who did not teach us.

    Burmese Department :
    U Tein Kyi (Head), U Tin Shwe, Daw Khin Than Myint, Daw Hla Myint, U Tin Win, …

    English Department :
    Daw Yin Yin Mya (Head), Daw Khin Win Kyi, U Sao Kan Gyi (GBNF), Daw Naw Charity Sein Oo, U Joe Ba Maung (GBNF), Mr. Desmond Rodgers (Canada), U Khin (Taiwan), U Kyaw Lwin Hla (UNDP), …

    Mathematics Department:
    U Sein Shan (Head, GBNF), U Shwe Hlaing, U Ko Ko Gyi (GBNF), U Tun Shein (GBNF), U Aung Soe, U Than Lwin, U Thein Han (Austraila), …

    Physics Department :
    Daw Nyein (Head, GBNF), Daw May Than Nwe (GBNF), U Saw Hlaing (GBNF), Mr. Robert Pho Yein (GBNF), U Nyunt Yin, Daw Thaung Nwe, Daw Aye Yi, …

    Chemistry Department :
    U Kyaw Tun (Head), Daw May Chit, Daw A Mar Sein, U Morris Kyaw Zaw, Daw Win Win, U Ba Ti, Daw Rosie Kwet Kaw (USA), Daw Win Myaing, U Pike Htwe, Daw Tin May Latt (Betty, GBNF), Daw Than Than (GBNF), …

    Mechanical Department :
    U Ba Than (Head), U Kyin Soe, U Tin Hlaing (GBNF), U Mg Mg Win (Australia), U Tu Myint, U Arya, U Soe Lwin, U S Kyaw Aye, U Phone Myint, U Win, U Khin Mg (GBNF), Dr. Tin Hlaing (Singapore), U Myo Win (GBNF), U Tin Htut (USA), U Han Tun (GBNF), …

    Electrical Department :
    U Sein Hlaing (Head, GBNF), U Kyaw Tun (GBNF), U Tin Swe (GBNF), U Sein Win (GBNF), U Soe Paing (UCC, UN), U Khine Oo, U Myo Kyi, U Sein Mg, U Ba Myint, U Tin Shwe (GBNF), U Thein Lwin (GBNF), U Soe Min (GBNF), U Nyi Nyi (UK), …

    Chemical Department :
    U Khin Aung Kyi (Head, GBNF), Dr. Hla Myint (Australia), …

    Civil Department:
    U Min Wun (Head, USA), Dr. San Hla Aung (USA), U Allen Htay (GBNF), U Khin Mg Phone Ko (Singapore), U Thein Tan, …

    Metallurgy Department :
    U Thit (Head, GBNF), U Aung Hla Tun, …

    Mining Department :
    U Soon Sein (Head, GBNF), U Win Kyaing (GBNF), …

    Textile Department:
    U Maung Maung Than (Head, GBNF), U Shwe Yi (GBNF), Daw Tin Tin Ohn (GBNF), …

    Architecture Department :
    U Myo Myint Sein (Head, USA), Dr. Lwin Aung (Sayadaw), …

    Workshop Department :
    Mr. Simons (Head, GBNF), U Phone Myint, …

    Library :
    Daw Myint Myint Khin (Librarian, GBNF), …

    Workshop

    We had to do practical works on blacksmith and carpentry in the first year. All first year students male and female had to do it. Mr. Simons, father of Victoria Simons (Met 70), was head of the department and U Phone Myint assistant head. Most popular among students was U Chit the blacksmith. U Chit had passed away a few years back.

    Food stalls

    The so called canteen in our first year days was a small open air building with roof and sort of concrete flooring, just like a zayat. But the location is very strategic for us male students. The road from the roofed walkway leading to G Hall is in front of it so G Hall students and their friends had to use that only road going to and from the main building to the Hall. Just imagine how much we enjoy sitting in the canteen. Of course one thing is we had no choice than to eat Si Kyet Khauk Swel, drink tea coffee or cold drinks at that canteen. I remember the price of the Si Kyet Khauk Swe was 50 pyas, and special one 75 pyas.

    There was also a stall selling tit bits (snacks, cigars, cigarettes and betel) at the corner of the roofed walkway from the main building to dining hall and hostels. (That walkway covered the sunshine only but couldn’t cover the heavy rains with strong winds. We all were soaked like rats in water pail sometimes walking along that walkway in the rainy seasons.) The owner of the stall was a middle-aged lady. Later U Chit also opened a Mont Hin Ga stall in the mornings near the dining hall. There was also a food shop at Gyogone junction outside the RIT compound known as Ma Tin Aye’s shop.

    The new open shed to accommodate food stalls was built on the space between the small canteen and dining hall. I am not sure when new stalls came in to sell foods. At the time there was only one shed facing the dining hall. Later another shed was built on the opposite side also.

    I remembered the shop named “Aung Theik Pan”, especially the two siblings of the owner. They are Po Po, elder girl and her young brother Aw Tee. Of course we couldn’t go to that shops frequently but sometimes when we had sponsors and during the holidays when the dining hall was closed.

    Film Shows

    The film shows at the Assembly Hall once a week were enjoyable. There were good films both foreign and local. Thin and lanky Ko Khin Mg Yin was the electrician and operated the film projector. He had passed away already.

    Summer training and courses

    During our 2nd year summer holidays, some students who didn’t join UTC camp attended the First Aid course. I attended the course but couldn’t recall my memory about it.

    From 3rd year onward, we had to undergo practical industrial training at factories and dockyards during the summer holidays. It was compulsory. I did my training at Mandalay Dockyard (3rd year) Amarapura B.E.M.E base workshop (4th year), and Union of Burma Research Institute (5th and Final year).

    Architecture students went to places where they can see and learn about the historical buildings and our ancestors’ architectural talents.

    Civil Engineering students went to Maymyo for the practical training on Surveying and other related studies. Other engineering disciple students went to their related industrial factories. These arrangements were beneficial to us and the industrial experiences we gained were of much help later in our work life.

    Hostel life

    As a hostel student we have to mingle not only with our classmates but also with our seniors and juniors. Due to our moving from one block to another at random rather than stay put in one block and room, our circle of friends become bigger and bigger as we advance to our final years.

    From second year onward, the blocks and rooms were allocated by drawing lots. So we did not know which hall will be our next year’s place and who our neighbors will be. We can choose our room mates in advance. The floors of the blocks are already fixed for which year students to stay. The uppermost floors of A,B,C,D,E blocks, corridor rooms between A&B, B&C, and D&E are mostly for fifth and final year students. F block is for final year students only. Inle Hall is mainly for first year students.With this system of allocating rooms, we tend to have more close friends with those from one year senior and one year junior. I think this is one main factor in fostering our RIT spirit which we showed vehemently in Inter-Institute Sports meetings (as Ko Zaw Min mentioned), and later in our work and social lives.

    How I got my nickname “Gaing Gyi”

    Brother asked my father what my name was. When he told my name, the brother put down on paper as “Ohn Gaing” with the guttural sound of the second word. I was an overweight and chubby boy then. I remembered whenever I put on long pants our family doctor would call me “Lu Win Sin Nauk Paing” and told me that it was not an English name but the hind part of Kyauk Se Elephant.

    Those who had seen the Kyauk Se Elephant will have in their eyes how I look like at that time. From thence my friends jokingly called me “Gan Gyi” meaning big hip. Up till Matriculation class I was called by that name among friends. Rarely will they call me “Ohn Khine”.

    When I joined RIT together with eleven of our friends from St Peter’s, these friends were so used to call me “Gaing Gyi” before. So after a while, I was known by that name among my friends’ friends, and they started to call me by that name. Some called me “Khine Gyi”, but the guttural sound seemed like easy to call and that was how I came to be called. In my work also my colleagues addressed me by that name up till now. I changed my name’s spelling to “Ohn Khine” when I joined RIT.

    Editor’s Notes

    We request sayas and colleagues to point out the errors and discrepancies.

    Supplementary material

    • Memories of RIT
      by Ko Zaw Min Nawaday (EP70)
    • Articles
      by Daw Than Yi (EP70, “Maubin Ma Shwe Than”)
    • Pamphlets/booklets
      by the “Combined 1st BE Intake of 64 and 65”
    • Photo Albums
    • RIT Students’ Guide
      e.g. one in possession by Ko Benny Tan (M70)
    • HMEE-2012
      by Saya U Aung Hla Tun & team
      Ko Ohn Khine and I compiled the CD Supplement for the HMEE-2012 Book
    • RIT Alumni International Newsletter and Updates
    CD Supplement compiled by U Ohn Khine (M70) and U Hla Min (EC69)
  • Literary Talks

    • Myanmar hosts many literary talks.
    • During our younger days, we attended “Sar Pay Haw Pyaw Pwes”.
    • They took place at Research Congress, Social and Reading Clubs, Recreation Center, Schools, Libraries and even at the village wards.
    • Literary Talks are also held outside Myanmar by the literary lovers.
    • For more than a decade, there were Annual and ad-hoc San Francisco Bay Area Talks.
    • Past speakers include Kyemon U Thaung (Aung Bala), Director Win Pe, Tin Moe (U Ba Gyan), Maung Swan Yi, Shwe Ku May Hnin, Tin Maung Maung Than, Min Ko Naing and Aw Pi Kyeh.

    Made in Myanmar

    In 2018, Aw Pi Kye and Min Ko Naing were invited speakers from Myanmar.

    • Aw Pi Kyeh is from the Class of 81/82.
    • As “Mann Bei”, he contributed and managed the RIT Cartoon Box.
    • He served as Secretary of the RIT Cartoon Association.
    • Later, he headed the Myanmar Cartoonists Association.
    • He spoke about “Made in Myanmar“. His talk displayed wit, humor, reasoning and philosophy.
    • He lamented the loss of countless lives in Cyclone Nargis due to “insufficient knowledge” (e.g. about Disaster Recovery).
    • He pointed out that his dress is made from neighboring countries.
      Shouldn’t one proudly support “Made in Myanmar” products?
    • During his study at Harvard, he proudly spent US$30 to buy a backpack labeled “Made in Myanmar”. His friend bought a similar backpack but labeled “Made in Sri Lanka”. The seam of his back pack broke after a week. Before his return to Myanmar, his friend gave him his backpack. He felt somewhat mad, but accepted it. He went on to use the backpack in Myanmar until it got discolored and his spouse asked him to stop using it. The message is that one not only needs Cetana but also the skills to provide “added advantage”.
    • He gave examples of how others (nations and their companies) used our natural resources and our local talents to create products (and often sell them back at profit).
    • He requested those overseas to use “conversion” to understand the “thinking” of those living in Myanmar (possibly most of their lives) as a baby step to help making “Made in Myanmar” proud and reliable.
  • U Kyaw Phone Myint (M71)

    • Also known as Victor Kyaw Phyo
    • My classmate in Middle School at SPHS.
    • Managing Director of Myanmar Atlantic Co. Ltd.
    • Spouse : Daw Htar Cho (Daughter of Minthuwun)
    • Met Victor at the gatherings of the Combined 1st BE Intake of 64 and 65 in Yangon.
    • One gathering was hosted by U Thaung Sein (Steeve Kay, EC70) at a sea food restaurant.
      Victor gave me a ride.
    • Another gathering was at the Reunion and Acariya Pu Zaw Pwe of the Combined 1st BE Intake of 64 and 65 at the Assembly Hall in Gyogone Campus.
      He was among the those seated on chairs.
      Most of them had medical problems, but came to pay respect to their sayas and sayamas.
    • U Ohn Khine (M70) sent the news the demise via the Google Group.
    • The “Soon Kwyay Invitation” forwarded by my son (who was a classmate of Victor’s elder son) lists the family members.
    This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is vkp.jpg
  • U Ye Myint (ChE70)

    • After completing Chemical Engineering in 1970, he briefly worked for industry.
    • He later joined RIT Chemical Engineering Department.
    • He moved to Singapore and worked until retirement.
    • His spouse is a medical doctor.
      She is a niece of Aunty Pu (Kaba Aye Sunlun Yogi).
    • He donated K10 Lakhs to Swel Daw Yeik Foundation.
      It was received by Mg Mar Ga ( M72).
    • He earlier donated to ChE Health Care Fund and several other RIT related activities.
    • I met him micro- and mini- gatherings in Yangon and Singapore.
    Donation of K10 Lakhs
    U Ye Myint, U Win Kyaw, U Hla Min, U Nyunt Htay
  • Saw Maung Maung Htwe

    • He is a Life long runner
    • He is the Most Senior among Active Marathoners in Burma.
    • Before the pandemic, he competed in Long Distance races throughout Burma.
    • He was a Star Athlete at St. Albert’s High School, Maymyo and RIT (Rangoon Institute of Technology).
    • He won several medals at the Inter-Institute Track and Field Tournaments.
    • He won the Individual and Team Gold Medals in the Inter-Institute Cross County Event.
  • Class of 71 (1)

    EC

    U Tin Win (EC 71)

    Saya U Tin Win (EC71) shared a photo from 2014 taken with his EP/EC classmates.

    Saya U Tin Win wrote :

    Ko Than Hlaing , Ko Than Hlaing, Ko Kyaw Win and our special friend Nyi Nyi Soe ( Sandayar ) from Myeik.

    Editor’s Note :

    U Tin Win worked at UCC before moving to FRI.

    Civil

    U Saw Lin (C71, GBNF)

    • He served as Secretary of the RIT Civil Engineering Association.
    • He was in charge of Technical Publications at MES (Myanmar Engineering Society). He mailed me a few MES publications.
    • During my visits to Yangon in 2012, he hosted a dinner gathering and presented me a Xeroxed copy of “RIT Cartoons”.
    • He also gave me a ride to the SPZP-2012 Preparatory Meetings.
    • I learned that he had medical problems, but he would give his best to make SPZP-2012 memorable.
      He wore several hats.
      He headed the committees for Logistics, Security and the Publication of the commemorative issue of Swel Daw Yeik Magazine and the re-printing of 23 Vintage RIT Annual Magazines.
    • He founded and moderated the Facebook pages for RIT Alumni.
    Mabel (wife), U Saw Linn, Prof. A. Vathsala, Win Naing (Kidney Donor, brother), and Dr. Khaing Thanda Lin (daughter) on June 8, 2004

    Editor’s Notes :

    • U
  • Class of 70 (2)

    Civil

    • Madan Chand
      Chicago, Illinois
      Taught at RIT
    • U Aye Win Kyaw (GBNF)
      Passed away in Pyin Oo Lwin
      Taught at RIT and BARB
    • U Aung
      Taught at RIT
      Worked in Singapore
      Author
      Wrote about U Wara (U Win Paing), U Aung Myint (Ko Kyant)

    Mechanical

    • U Ohn Khine
      Admin, Google Group for Intake of 64 and 65
      Volunteer for SPZP, SDYF, HMEE …
      Compiled CD Supplement for HMEE Book
      Translated Section 1 & Summarized Section 2 of HMEE Book
    This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is thant-zin-ohn-khine-zaw-win.jpg
    • Benny Tan
      Chair, Working Committee, SPZP-2000
      Multiple Golden Sponsor for SPZP
      Founding member of RIT Alumni International
      Past President, BAPS

    Electrical

    • Steeve Kay (U Thaung Sein)
      Donated $200,000+ for RIT-related activities
      Multiple Golden Sponsor for SPZP
      Steeve and Helen Kay Health Care Fund for RIT Sayas and Sayamas
    This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is steeve-kay-ec70.jpg
    • U Zaw Min Nawaday
      Luyechun for Inlay Camp in the Summer of 1965
      Wrote Memoirs : RIT (1964 – 1970) with U Ohn Khine
    This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is Steeve-Kay-5.jpg
  • Dr. Win Thein (C58)

    Class of C58
    Class of Civil 1958

    Sad News

    From Saya Dr. Ohn Myint

    Sad to learn from Yangon Dr. U Win Thein Medical group’s message that Saya passed away in Minhantha clinic today. 

    Funeral service will be tomorrow at 9 am Yangon time and our time tonight at 9:30 pm EST.

    Ohn Myint

    Saya’s Farewell Message (via Than Than Soe)

    From Sayagyi Dr. Aung Gyi

    Ohn Myint,

    My wife and I are very sad to know that Dr Win Thein had passed away.
    He was one of the nicest persons that I have known in my life.
    He was a very good, decent person with goodwill to all and with malice towards none.
    I have never seen him getting angry with anyone.
    He was always helpful to me and my wife. I will miss him a lot, particularly as I made him a promise to look him up as soon as I arrive Yangon in my next visit to Myanmar.
    My wife and I pray that he will have a better next life.
    Please send our condolences to his family.

    With warm regards
    Aung Gyi

    From Saya Dr. San Hla Aung

    Dear Ko Hla Min,

    I am so deeply saddened to learn of one of my dearest friends Dr Win Thein’s passing away. He was also one of the finest persons I have ever known and I will always have very fond memories of him. I pray and believe that he will reach a higher level of abode in his next existence.

    With metta,
    San Hla Aung

    From Saya U Tin Htut

    We are sorry to hear that Dr Win Thein passed away. I know him as a senior student at Faculty of Engineering on Prome Road and as a senior colleague at RIT.
    I saw him during my last visit to Yangon 3 years ago.
    Please convey my condolences to his family in Yangon.

    With metta
        Irene and TinHtut

  • UCC (GBNF)

    Dr. Tin Maung

    • Son of Saya U Kar (former Minister in the Ain Sount Ah So Yah).
    • Doctorate in Mathematics from Queen Mary College.
    • Succeeded Saya Dr. Chit Swe as Director of UCC.
    • During his tenure, the Department of Computer Science (DCS) and the Institute of Computer Science and Technology (ICST) were established.
    • Served as the first Rector of ICST.
    U Ko Ko Lay

    U Ko Ko Lay

    • Saya Dr. Chit Swe founded UCC with the help of Saya U Soe Paing, Saya U Myo Min and Saya U Ko Ko Lay.
    • BSCE and MSCE from Stanford University
    • Joined PWD
    • Transferred to UCC as Operations Manager
    • Served as Scientific Applications Manager, Professor of Computer Science at DCS, and Professor of Information Technology at ICST.

    CO U Hla Min

    • He is my namesake.
      Those outside UCC were not aware that he was one year junior to me at St. Paul’s High School and RIT.
    • Graduated from RIT with Electrical Power in 1970.
    • Joined UCC as Chief Operator (CO).
    • Attended a post-graduate course in UK
      Met his beloved one doing Advanced Nurse Training
    • I became a “Tone Kyaw” when he passed away at the tender age of 30+.
      Two government training centers (where I had given guest lectures) planned to send “Lwan Thu Pann Chway” to me.
      My classmate U Moe Hein (Ajala) took leave to attend my funeral at the Kyandaw Cemetery.

    U Mya Thein

    • Joined the Department of Commerce, Institute of Economics.
    • Transferred to UCC as Business Applications Programmer along with U Thein Oo.
    • Succeeded me as Business Applications Manager.
    • Taught at UCC, DCS and ICST
    • Also taught at the International Theravada Buddhist Missionary University (ITBMU).

    U Kyaw Nyein

    • Joined UCC as Scientific Applications Manager.
    • Taught Numerical Methods and Numerical Analysis.
    • Played soccer and volleyball at UCC.
    • Served as a UNV in the Middle East . During an assignment, he and his team had to be relocated due to war/conflict in the area.

    U Maung Maung Gyi

    • Joined UCC as Operator and served as Shift Leader.
    • Succeeded CO U Hla Min as Chief Operator.

    U Soe Myint

    • Graduated from RIT with Mechanical Engineering in 1972.
      His M72 friends called him “Phone Gyi” since there were four Soe Myint in their class.
    • Joined UCC as Operator.
    • Since there was a M.Sc. (CS) student with the same name, he is called as “Sunlun Soe Myint” and “Soe Myint Gyi”.
    • Attended DAC.
    • Had training in US (on graphics)
    • Taught Mechanical Drawing and AutoCAD to ICST students.
    • Retired as Pro-Rector of ICST.

    U Myint Aung

    • Office Superintendent in the Admin Division of UCC.
    • Volunteered to drive the E-2000 ferry.
    • Close friend of Ko Khin Maung Zaw’s father.

    Daw Khin Lay Myint

    • Joined UCC as Secretary.
    • Became a Branch Clerk.

    Daw Nge Ma Than

    • Younger daughter of U Aung Than (brother of Bogyoke Aung San).
    • Prisoner of Conscience
    • During the Adhamma era, she was detained along with her husband U Myint Swe (UCC) and her brother.

    U Win Naing

    • Science Scholar.
    • Attended the 1st batch of M.Sc. (CS) with the Systems Option.
    Shein Soe Myint

    U Shein Soe Myint

    • EC83 batch.
    • Served in various capacities at UCC (Engineering, Teaching)
    • Passed away in Singapore while doing his Ph.D.

    U Aung Aung Thein

    • Colleague of U Kyaw Zwar Soe.
    • Served in various capacities at UCC (Engineering, Teaching)
    • Younger brother U Kyaw Kyaw Thein is also ex-UCC.

    U Thein Tan

    • Close friend of U Zaw Tun

    Daw Hla Hla Win

    • Worked for Operations Division.
    • Spouse : U Than Tun
    • Attended DAC

    Daw Khin San Hlaing

    • Also known as Cynthia
    • Joined UCC as Librarian
    • Attended M.Sc. (CS)
    • Was at Asian Institute of Technology (AIT)
    • Migrated to Australia

    Daw Kyu Kyu Lwin

    • Served as “ad hoc” Tutor for Mathematics Department
    • Worked for the Operations Division
    • Attended DAC
    • Transferred to Social Security Board (SSB) Computer Section

    Daw Win May Thaung

    • Cousin of Ronnie Hla Maung (my middle school class mate).
    • Worked for the Operations Division.

    Daw Khin Mya Swe

    • M.Sc. (CS)
    • Passed away in Lesotho

    Daw Khin Toe Nyein

    • M.Sc. (CS)
    • Classmates : Daw Pale Shein, Daw Thet Htar Su

    Daw Thida Aung

    • M.Sc. (CS)
    • Classmates : Daw Thida Khin and Daw Mu Mu Myint.

    Daw Aye Aye Kyi

    • Served as Librarian.
    • Passed away around 2013.
    • Spouse : U Han Nyunt (SPHS63)
  • Organizers (GBNF)

    • Saya Allen Htay (C58)
    • U Win Thein (M67)
    • U Saw Lin (C71)
    • U Aung Moung (M73)
    • U Than Sin Myint (Met)

    Saya Allen Htay

    Saya Allen was leader of the San Francisco Bay Area Alumni Group, which established “RIT Alumni International” and hosted the First RIT Grand Reunion and Saya Pu Zaw Pwe in October 2000. His article “Brother, can you afford $500?” motivated Golden Sponsors for SPZP-2000. Saya was President of the RIT Photography Association.

    U Win Thein

    U Win Thein served as Vice President and/or Secretary of RIT Mechanical Engineering Association. He co-founded Set Hmu Thadin Zin & helped publish the Mech Engg Magazine. He organized extra curricular activities for the students.

    U Saw Lin

    U Saw Lin served as Secretary of the RIT Civil Engineering Association. He managed the Tech Publications of MES. He wore multiple hats for SPZP-2012 : Chief Editor of the commemorative Swel Daw Yeik Magazine, Reprint limited copies of 23 old RIT Annual Magazines, Managed Logistics & Security, … Despite his medical problems, he gave his best to ensure the success of the first True Home Coming.

    U Aung Moung

    U Aung Moung was a core Volunteer for SPZPs, Swel Daw Yeik Foundation, History of Myanmar Engineering Education project … He was a Right Hand Man for Sayagyi U Ba Than (e.g to connect with former colleagues and students). Several monks offered (with their own arrangement) to attend U Aung Moung’s last journey.

    U Than Sin Myint

    “Bo Than” and team provided shade to the attendees of SPZP-2016. U Wynn Htain Oo has posted photos and memories of SPZP-2016 in general and U Than Sin Myint in particular

    Miscellaneous

    There are probably more unsung heroes. It is difficult if not impossible to cover alumni spanning six decades or more.